What about tipping / influence of the dealer?

[john_solitude]

[size=12]A question we were asked many times before:
why are punters obliged to tip the dealer / is it of any use / ... and many variations on this question.[/size]

You can read more about the investigation on dealers signature or dealer influence over here:
nolinks://nolinks.john-solitude.be/questions.html#question_signature

More information on the influence of the dealer in the below section:

The information we have on staff wages is derived from the situation on the European continent and this can differ from venue to venue. So, we do not know the situation on US or Asian continent.
We're talking about the typical situation in regulated casino's on the European continent:

Why do casino's expect the players to tip the dealer (croupier) on roulette?

A job as a dealer, working in a typical casino, is not that well payed, despite what many players belief. If some dealers make good money it's mostly because they are working very long hours, during weekend, holidays, night shifts and so on. Typically however, these are minimum wage jobs for people who have no other job qualifications.


The casino expects you to tip the dealer on roulette for two reasons:

Reason 1

The casino can allow to pay basic wages, increased with a tipping percentage that is derived from the tipping box.

HOWEVER (and this is what actually happens and most players are not aware of):

The tips you drop into the box are not divided fair and square to the dealer who was providing in the ball spinning of your roulette session (so one can not compare this to giving a tip to a waitress for providing good service).

The actual percentage going to the dealer is different from venue to venue. Typically the casino's use a pyramid sort of waging system, so also the pitbosses, floormanagers, ... receive a cut (otherwise dealers would soon become very rich if they would receive all the tips from the box).

Fact 1: tipping allows the casino to cut on the basis wages of staff.


Reason 2

Installing a house policy in which the punter is expected to tip the dealer, is a deliberate way to mathematically increase the house edge on roulette even further.

Compare it to flipping a coin:

If the chance is 50/50 for heads or tails and you as a player do not double up your money if you get the bet right (this would be a fair bet, equal to the risk one took), but you are also expected to tip the coin flipper once in a while on a hit, your chances to make a profit are reduced even further:

It' s the very same principal on roulette: if your chances are 1/37 or 1/38 for a straight hit, but you only receive 35-1, the risk you took is not rewarded fairly, but if you are also expected to tip the dealer, the reward for the risk you took is mathematically increased even further.

For example: if you play the numbers and have a straight hit (risk 1/37 or 1/38), reward (35-1), but you give one chip of the winnings to the dealer your actual reward becomes 34-1.


Some players tip the dealer because they are convinced the dealer was favourable towards them,
by aiming towards the section they were playing:

Fact 1:

There is not one scientifical report to be found in gambling literature, supporting the hypothesis a dealer could influence the outcome of a spin on modern professional wheels. The ex-dealer (croupier) we consulted during our research also denied this possibility, or was not aware of dealers who were able to do so.

The very same conclusion was also made in the classic 'Beat The Wheel' by Russell T. Barnhart
nolinks://nolinks.john-solitude.be/literature.html#beating_the_wheel

However, some dealers like to give this impression to players they can influence the outcome,
because punters would be more stimulated to tip the dealer. It's in their own interest to keep this myth alive, because if players believe this, the dealer is likely to receive more tips: it increases their moderate basic wage.

If punters do believe the dealer is their friend and is friendly towards them by aiming for a specific section, they will be more likely to tip and even decrease their chance to make a profit in the long run even further.


Why is this such a stubborn 'hear say' and myth that a dealer would be able to influence the outcome of a spin

Reason 1:

Human psychology: punters do like to believe this, because it decreases the awareness of taking a risk, if they believe the dealers is on their side. As such one would only have to tip the dealer sufficiently to receive a good hit once in a while.

Reason 2

Self esteem: giving big tips to the dealer gives the other players the impression you are making big winnings. It gives the player the status he or she craves for.

Reason 3:

Many 'hear say' stories of 'bias' have spread the internet. In the same book 'Beat the wheel' there are reports of bias appearing on old types of wheels (deep pockets, screwed in pockets: this is not the case on modern wheels). In several cases leading to prosecution there was deliberate forge involved by the casino staff itself: for instance a technician fixed the wheel so a bias would appear, and his accomplice (a player) would come in the next day, but for the players it looked as if the dealer was into the sheme (deliberate aiming for a sector).

[toby]

Very clear your explanations as ususal, I believe the same you stated.

best regards

[Mr J]

I never tip, will never tip. There has to be something IN IT for me. I have left the casino before winning $1,700, did not tip even a dollar. The dealers (in general) could careless where that ball lands. Its only a job for them and they cant wait to go home! "A job as a dealer, working in a typical casino, is not that well payed" --- As far as their pay etc., not my problem, cry me a river. If they dont like their job/pay, they should seek other employment.  QUESTION: Do the dealers/casino tip us when we lose? Not talking about comps. If I lost $800 on the day, does the dealer say to me, "hey Ken, here's $60 back, enjoy your day". They dont tip me, I dont tip them. Seems kind of fair.  Ken

[roger]

I never tip, will never tip. There has to be something IN IT for me. I have left the casino before winning $1,700, did not tip even a dollar. The dealers (in general) could careless where that ball lands. Its only a job for them and they cant wait to go home! "A job as a dealer, working in a typical casino, is not that well payed" --- As far as their pay etc., not my problem, cry me a river. If they dont like their job/pay, they should seek other employment.  QUESTION: Do the dealers/casino tip us when we lose? Not talking about comps. If I lost $800 on the day, does the dealer say to me, "hey Ken, here's $60 back, enjoy your day". They dont tip me, I dont tip them. Seems kind of fair.  Ken

i totaly agree with you Ken, for my work i don't get tips either so why should they?  

[MattyMattz]

I like to tip but only if the dealers making the game more enjoyable.  It has nothing to do with influencing the game, but if the dealer is cracking jokes and generally improving my day, I'll tip 'em.  

PS - I've never tipped at a roulette table, just blackjack and poker tables.
Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Matt

[Mr J]

What is this fascination with politely giving opinions only to have them deleted? On a different message board, the topic was "tipping". Well.....I gave my LONG view on the subject only to offend a couple of dealers. So what? All my posts were deleted and a PM was sent to me >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just wanted to send you a quick PM to let you know that I edited and deleted a bunch of messages in the How To Tip thread. It wasn't really intended as a place to debate whether or not you SHOULD tip, but more instructional on how to do it if you want to.

Also, the messages started to veer dangerously off topic. In a stickied thread (one that's saved at the top for reference) I'm much more likely to remove off-topic posts. I welcome you to start another thread if you want to discuss your betting strategy.

I hope you understand my position.

Thanks

[Lanky]

Hi Ken.

At least You got a PM telling You something Mate.

Over on the other Forum where we are not allowed to mention this one.

I have had 1 or 2 deleted without any Reason Given.

And the exact same wording that I replied to & that I used is still there on some-one's post.......

Figure that one out...

That's why I don't post much over there anymore.

Good On Ya Mate

Lanky

[admin]

What is this fascination with politely giving opinions only to have them deleted?

I ensure you here you won't get deleted Kenneth...

*IF* you still want to want to fire some of your comments on tipping/not tipping, you are very welcome!  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Mr J]

"the messages started to veer dangerously off topic." --- Who, me?  lol

[Mr J]

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