13 Againts the Bank

[justpoker]

Hi All,

I am sure you are all aware of the book 13 againts the bank and the system used in the book The Revese Labouchere System.   I am curious to here if anyone has put this system to test as Norman Leigh did and what results you had.  I reed the book many years ago and have lost it and i am egar to give it ago I remember that the fact the table minimums are too high nowa days to make the system profitable, Does anyone know the main flaws in the system that would make it impossible to make any tidy money using it,

Thanks JP

[Nathan Detroit]

Just play marbles.No table  minimums. 

[justpoker]

Cant Lost all my marbles years ago trying to find a winning roulette system

[mr.ore]

Such a system is really dependent on your luck - you have to be able to catch a lot of winning streaks. The advantage is that it is a positive progression and so you can't lose it at once, but somewhat slower.

Rather than using labby, I use divisor for that - start balance/5 = 5/5 and any wins go to balance, bet 5/5=1 W,  6/5,   bet 6/5=2 (rounding up) W,  8/5 and so on. Reset on balance <= 0 or balance >= target (in this case 50, should be more probably, or change as you need - adapt to game). If trends are coming, it is a goodie. It is actually another way of tracking reverse labouchere, there won't be much difference in bet sizes.

Two images:
1) good time
2) that's why it does not work
Image tells more than words...

edit: the images are for no zero RNG, so the first works so nice, I have forgotten to enable zero it in my sim software, but if you wanted to play RNG, go with a no zero one anyway

[justpoker]

Hi M. R Ore,
Thanks for your imput, I dont quite understand your system maybe you could explain more or link to a better explanation.   Also I agree that it would either be really good or really bad, If you are doing just 1 bet I. E Red, In the book there where 6 people betting on one table each person would be allocated and even bet red/black odd/even high/low.  As you can imagine this would be a break evan stratergy without any streaks, But when a streak accurs on black for instance then this person will be winning while the person playing red would be losing 10 units every 2 spins but the person winning would be winning at a much faster rate than this and only risking his inital 10 unit bet soon as he reaches  the table max he stops and starts again banking a nice profit.   I think that they estamated that one evan chance bet would streak every six days so by doing all the even chances they would get about one streak a day. 

Hope you understand my explanation. 

[mr.ore]

Two players coordinating - not really that good, but it is hard to make it at least little working Strongly dependend on min and max bet and how many values are inbetween, also reset condition is crucial and hard to describe. My test does not have differential betting - they both bet while zero can hit in.

[justpoker]

During your test what was the min and max bet set at?

[mr.ore]

I don't know already, just changed it several times. Because it does not work, I just change a value to see what it does. There is a need for a more intelligent progression which holds a part of winnings, I have tried to find that several times but failed.

formula for hypotethical intelligent positive progression:

bet = (balance * F(balance))/divisor

0< F(balance) <=1

right values for a session starting balance, starting divisor and F(...) might be a key for a better management system. What I want to do is that if it is winning losing, something is tracking it and F returns values to either hold more bet or play aggresively. Usually there is a hill, then valley, then hill and so on. If F detected start of a valley, it would hold some winnings...

Also session target should change dynamically acording to global balance and last sessions result...

[John Gold]

I have a copy of the original book on my hard drive.  If anybody would like a copy, drop me a PM.

[mr.ore]

Another posibility for a positive progression. Start with a some sum, for example

reset: sum=1, starting sum=1

Each spin:
bet = round_up(sum/starting_sum)

on W: update: sum = sum + round_up(amount_won*k)
on L: update: sum = sum - bet
if sum <= 0: reset

k is a variable 0...1, for k=0 it's flat betting, for k=1 it's anti-martingale, for k in between like 0.25,0.5,0.75 it is a positive labby-like progression.

Image in attachement shows a "good time" with k=0.15, that means that we rebet 15% of won bet, rest is saved. To make the system better, it could be possible to change k according to our needs an changing it's properties on a scale  flat betting <---> reverse-labby <---> anti-martingale. This system is probably "better" than reverse labby, but also difficult to use. Just a basis for some better system I think.

[mr.ore]

Above system played on a dozen with start sum=2 (used as a divisor actually), k=0.6 (40% is pocketed). What is actually good about this positive progression is that it does not need stoploss. If a positive trend appears, it will pocket side winnings until sum is 0 and then it resets. With k it can be changed to any positive progression for any chance. Starting sum used as a divisor also affects aggressivity, and maybe it could be just changed to some independent divisor value. BTW zero was enabled and it showed profit after 10000 spins, but it only works if there is enough trends. I would lower k if there are no trends, there is a space for a development.

[mr.ore]

Still probably best suited for even chacnes - higher ones would need some more magic to work how I want them to if a positive trend appears.

image: starting sum=1, k=0.3
10k rng spins+zero enabled
+detail to see how it pocket won money in order to not give all wins back to casino immediately

[mr.ore]

starting sum=1, k=0.01 (only 1% is rebet, or 1 unit, whatever is bigger)

note those are only winning strikes utilized, if there is no edge, it loses badly - it is a positive progression

[justpoker]

Mr ore thanks for your input I kinda get where your coming from I work in a casino so have seen all kinda betting systems.   All of witch ruin the people using them it's quite sad watching someone slowly disintigrate over a period of months.   But thats gambling for you, what i wanted to touch on with this post the fact that his gang where people from normal walks of life with little or no gaming experiance.   They where trained to use a system and if you have read the book you will know it worked pritty well with great sucsess.   And im sure it would have been used again in latter years thats why i started this post to try and find out if anyone has tried and what sucsess if any they had. 

JP

[John Gold]

JP, there was someone a few years ago who came up with a kind of modified version of the reverse labby. I will look for it and will post it up here if I can find it.

[John Gold]

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