Electronic Roulettes

[Steve]

See nolinks://nolinks.roulettecomputers.com/international-gaming-authorities/
The list isnt complete. But if its not listed there, theres a good change gambling is not regulated in the target country.

[ausguy]

Steve - What's your view on RRS random rotor speeds & air jet holes in the ball track ? The Cammergh site demonstrates this on their Mercury 360 RRS model.

Discreet is the word they use when describing the manipulation. The human eye/brain can't detect the subtle changes in speed = deception = game/set/match.

Dealer spun wheels in casinos I know of are, as always, still (hopefully) random results devices.

This thread is about elecronic wheels. As they are EGMs (elect. gaming mach.) and they can & do legally manipulate the spin outcomes. It would be a futile exercise complaining to any gaming regulator as these auto wheel games always comply with the rules.

They (Cammergh) don't need magnets when they can easily control things with compressed air & ultra accurate rotor speed motors.

Other makers may have to use magnetic assist due to patent risk issues ?  Auto wheel balls generally are noticeably larger than those on dealer spun wheels.

Generally so too are the auto wheels.

Cammergh now has roulette wheels that have both ball & wheel speed control which allows after spin betting (auto wheel). They also have an option for a dealer table model to launch the ball with a button press only. They seem to have all bases covered where the can cater to both regulated (the ususal random spun wheel) & unregulated casinos.

Cruise ships with casinos, are they unregulated because they can open play in International waters ?

All the on line casinos I've seen/played on are regulated. My view is that regulated casinos far & away outweigh unregulated joints ?

World wide anti criminal/anti money laundering measure. Always ID with on line withdrawals & wins over $10k at my local casino here in OZ land.

Cammergh says its RRS feature now makes electronic tracking redundant, mainly relevant to the auto wheels.

[Steve]

1. There are different versions of 'RRS', not just used by Cammegh. Some make almost no difference to accuracy of computers and vb because the designers dont understand what makes roulette predictable. Other versions are very tough and generally avoided for "prediction after ball release" methods like vb and computers. They may know the wheels arent completely unbeatable... the technology is more of a deterrent. Hint: The wheel designers dont understand there are specific speed ranges and variations that will make no difference, and some that will make all the difference. How do you know what is what? It depends on factors that are different on every wheel, like ball, ball track, dominant diamonds. Current RRS just randomizes without much thought or understanding.

2. Not all RRS versions affect methods with predictions before ball release. How? I'll leave that one alone. With non-traditional processes, computers can apply a similar method but it involves many more spins than usual computer application. The more difficult wheels may help protect casinos from traditional advantage play, but considering the lost trust from players, the casino actually stands to lose more with RRS than without. Cammegh doesn't say this on their site. Instead they say players dont notice, but they do. The rotor speed changes are being noticed - many players who arent even my players report it and perceive it as cheating casinos that cant be trusted. Many auto wheels are viewed this way too.

3. The same kind of manipulation can be done with the ball, usually via air compressors on auto wheels. Ive seen it done with magnets too, advertising it to still be random because the magnets let the ball roll naturally after a random number of revolutions. This is not as effective in randomizing the spin results as they appear to think.

4. No gaming laws in international waters.

5. Unregulated casinos can still be as fair and honest as regulated casinos. No difference. All legalized stealing from people who cant afford to lose.

6. The money-laundering excuse is more about taxation, control, all while tracking people that take the casinos soft-earned cash

No doubt wheel designers are getting smarter. And they're learning a real physical wheel = predictable, and RNG is unpredictable. So now they are merging the RNG with the trust of real physical wheels. From feedback I get, sure it is bad for advantage players to significant extent, but worse for casinos and the trust they lose.

It may be worthwhile to spread the word about it so casinos are forced to give us natural and fair games, not RNG assisted theft. They will eventually understand being fair will be better for professional players, and them. the majority of players wouldnt have a clue about RRS, but enough do to make them overall lose money. APs are too few to be a serious threat, and the casino's best option is still detection of pro players.

APs may cost a casino $200,000 per year
Use of the RRS costs them $500,000 per year because of lost trust
But they still get to keep the $20m or so from players that have no clue and probably dont care

If a casino only has auto wheels, the majority of players see it as "cheating". Casinos know this which is why they created the RRS rotors. But it only reduces the lost trust. Again it is still being noticed by players.

Potential loss would be hard to measure because you dont always know why an income drops. If casinos put signs next to their wheels to advertise that their wheels have no computer interference, that would be a sign for APs to attack the wheel, AND a sign to create trust. So it is win-win for APs and casinos. Bad for normal players though as they lose more money.

[xman1970]

See nolinks://nolinks.roulettecomputers.com/international-gaming-authorities/
The list isnt complete. But if its not listed there, theres a good change gambling is not regulated in the target country.

thanks for that link Steve 

[ADulay]

From a live video demo. section of the RSS function on the same  Cammergh site.  "The RSS has a different outcome to what it would otherwise have been."

Then they explain RSS active vs non active with the wheel always set to 20 rpm for the tests. "In the RSS deceleration test the ball lands in pocket 20 instead of pocket 4".  20 & 4 are on opposite sides to each other on the 37 number wheel.

Ausguy,

  Having watched that video a few times, I"m still trying to figure out what they're demonstrating.

  Are they trying to show that you can't notice the change in speed?

  Are they demonstrating that the ball will land somewhere else, but not actually directed to a spot?

  It can't be a scientific display as there's a human spinning the ball!!

  So what is it that they showing?   The demonstration is vague at best.

  Thanks.

  AD

[ausguy]

Ad - Re : The demo video I agree with what you say, particularly that it isn't very scientific ?

They may not be revealing the full true technical details on a site open to anyone ?

The written text hints that they know more than they want to reveal as they say things like "lands in pocket 20 instead of pocket 4" (37 no. Euro wheel)

Keeping in mind they also have highly accurate ball speed tracking so they would have a program that co-ordinates the required ball & rotor speeds to zone an area of the wheel. ? Whether through extensive testing the program can learn to refine itself to land a particular number can only be speculated upon by us ?

Certainly with the physics of their ball & wheel being constants and once they know the speeds of both (which they do with high accuracy) then they know the exact location of any 360 deg. point that the ball drops out of the ball track.

To be able to say the ball "lands on 20 instead of 4", in my view, infers that they know where the ball will land with the speed controls switched either on or off ?

Comprehensive testing, perhaps over many months & maybe 1 million spins of information gives them a data bank that could give +/- 99.99% accuracy ?

This would be more than sufficient to achieve the outcomes the casinos want = manipulate the results & guarantee their earnings.

[ADulay]

Perhaps someone should email them and just ask what those videos are demonstrating?

AD

[ausguy]

Ad - You could contact them with a picture of yourself in a captains looking uniform giving them the impression you're a potential customer for a new casino you will be operating somewhere in regulation free International waters ?

[ADulay]

Ad - You could contact them with a picture of yourself in a captains looking uniform giving them the impression you're a potential customer for a new casino you will be operating somewhere in regulation free International waters ?

Hmm, good idea.  I'll just include a picture of my boat and that'll cinch the deal!!

AD

[ausguy]

That would be your small boat as your big one needs much deeper water ?

[ADulay]

Ausguy,

  Yes.  That's the one we use to carry supplies and people out to the big boat in the harbor.

  AD 

[memorabilis1234]

I saw the mention of magnets in roulette balls. From over 1000 players I know, not one has ever seriously reported it. Sure there have been some odd bounces, but that happens in roulette. But there certainly are wheels / balls that use magnets. If they were used, it would be in unregulated casinos in high roller rooms. No casino would risk a license worth hundreds of millions by using magnets. I'm not saying it isnt possible, but most of you wouldnt be betting $50,000 per spin. The casino is quite prepared to lose a few thousand here and there. It keeps people coming back anyway.

Well using magnets in automated and half automated wheels is legit.You can check on the website of the Gambling Guru Commision

[memorabilis1234]

It appears memo is done here and is just using this thread to drum up business through skype, etc?

That renders this thread useless for forum purposes so it will be locked then removed unless memo comes back here and renews the discussion in a positive way.

Cheers.

As you wish my friend.

[jrhelp007]

Not sure why many of you are deviating from the topic.

memorabilis1234,

Can you show a few recorded videos where you play the wheel and its results?

Thanks,

John

[ADulay]

And just when I thought this thread had fallen off a cliff.

Very cool.  Some examples would be nice.

AD

[ADulay]

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